Sunday, December 04, 2005

Sadness...

This week, ideas about women in the ministry have been all over the blogosphere. We've been discussing with Natalie, Kristen, Zalm, and even over here a few months ago. And it's easy for me to get riled up, angry and indignant. But, for me, I am usually not pure enough to have any truly righteous anger. But I am learning to know hurt, true anvil on the chest, hurt and sadness. And a conversation today made me sad, very sad.

My older brother and only sibling, who is an amazing man, turns 28 on Wednesday. He was my role model growing up. I adored him, as many younger siblings do. He helped teach me how to throw a softball, play football, let me play football with his (male) friends (even on his all guys flag football team in college). He never dumbed himself down to compete with me. It was always full force. I never got kid gloves because I was a girl. If anything, he'd be the one to get pissed off and exploit the stupidity of the other teams that would assume they didn't have to defend against me. The same goes for intellectual debate, my brother never dumbed it down for me. He also never denied that, frankly, I'm better than him academically, that I am an awesome teacher, and that I could do anything that I wanted or felt called to do.

Now, we're all grown up. He still lives 700 miles away in Tennessee, has his master's degree in Environmental Engineering and works for a Fortune 500 engineering firm. He's no dimwit, that's for sure. He read Einstein one summer for FUN. Our relationship has always been built on respect. We even went to the same undergrad and had weekly dinners to make sure that we remain close.

So, tonight, we were having a theological discussion. We had an actual 45 minute conversation, which is miracle length for big bro. I brought up corporate sin, and he had never heard of it. (I hadn't either oh..three years ago). He disagrees that God is going to hold each of us accountable for something that isn't individual sin. I disagree, but considering my brother's very communal approach to life, especially on environmental issues, and his constant disdain for America's overindulgence, I can agree to disagree.

We mutually agreed that our faith background twisted us to fear God. We talked about how both of us truly struggle with solitude and a deep sense of shame in the presence of God. He told me what he is teaching in his (SBC) Sunday School class, and it sounds like really great stuff. My brother lives a life I wish I could live, struggling through is doubt, tithing regularly, volunteering with the homeless, and the type of man that makes others just like him, naturally.

But then we got on the topic of women in the ministry. I mentioned the info from Natalie's blog that some SBC missionaries aren't letting women teach men in any context. And there was silence on his end of the phone. Long pause. "Well, I don't know Nicole.." He did say that he wasn't sure but as the conversation went on, it was clear that my brother doesn't think that the leaders of the SBC are too far off on this one.

And my heart hurts that a man who is so egalitarian in his relationship with his girlfriend(she's in vet school, for cryin' out loud), who helped me to become a strong woman, doesn't think that I could be called to ministry.

I said something about feminism and egalitarianism, something about women and men being equal. Brother says that women and men aren't equal. And my heart sank more.

I don't know if it's shown on my blog here, but over the past several months, I have been feeling strongly called to teaching within the context of the church and have been trying to discern what this means through some prayer and scripture reading, and a bit of spiritual guidance. Still, I am really hurt by the fact that my brother can't affirm the one area in my life that brings me the greatest sense of meaning and purpose. He can't..or won't..see me as anything other than deficient, in my eyes.

I hate that my femaleness is seen as shame and not glory. That my leadership seen as sin rather than giftedness. My calling seen as self promotion rather than the work of God in my life. That who I am, how God made me, may never be affirmed by one of the very people that guided me to be where I am, who I am, and helped me face the fear of seeking God's will on my life.

Praise God, my parents, though sometimes warped and fallen like all of us, do not feel this way. There were mixed messages in my family...messages to be docile and manipulative, but not powerful in the face of a powerful mother who is in the ministry. But when it comes down to it, my father and mother have mellowed and support my calling, and that women are appointed to positions of leadership by God. They believe that men and women submit to one another, not one to the other.

Yes, I see the contradiction in my brother's life and philosophy, but I can't fix them. I can pray. I can talk to him. Maybe one day I might be able to coherently share with him how he hurts me, and I'm working on that. But tonight, I am sad.

13 comments:

stc said...

I'm curious. What would you say if a gay man said exactly what you say here: I have been feeling strongly called to teaching within the context of the church and have been trying to discern what this means through some prayer and scripture reading, and a bit of spiritual guidance.

Would you say, "Go for it — gay people can be ministers, too"?

Or would you say, "You may think that God is calling you to ministry, but you must be mistaken. We have to believe God's word over our subjective feelings. Gay people can't be ministers"?

To be clear about this, I am quite liberal in my theology, and I believe both women and homosexuals can be called to ministry.

I'm not sure how conservative you are in your theology. But I'm curious to know what you'll make of my example.
Q

Jim Jannotti said...

Nicole,

It sounds from your post as if your brother's theological beliefs lie in one direction while the practical reality of his life lies in another. Near the end you mentioned a contradiction and I assume this was what you were referring to. Am I reading that correctly?

It's something that I've seen many times in the church, and I don't mean anything negative by pointing it out. Relationship (especially sibling relationship) can soften our stated theological convictions. Some call it compromise, I call it living in the real world.

I understand your hurt and anger and I would disagree with your brother's theological position, though his life as you described it seems to say something I would agree with heartily.

People who insist that the scriptures teach against women in ministry usually like to cite Paul. They have to cite selectively, however. Insisting on his restrictive argument completely ignores the way Paul actually treated women in the real world.

Not that you need anything more to read but a good resource for addressesing this question is Community 101 by Gordon Bilezikian. See also various materials by Ken Bailey.

I hope that your pain will ease and that your brother can affirm your calling along with the rest of your family even if it doesn't completely line up with his theology.

Ninjanun said...

Oh, Nicole. I understand how you feel. I had many people I looked up to (most notably, my old youth minister) tell me that men and women AREN'T equal when it comes to ministry callings, and that I had "misheard from God." It stings something awful.

I do believe (and hope) that in time, as your brother sees your life in God, and in His calling, joyously lived out, and sees how other people are blessed by it, he will change his mind. It seems that in many ways, his lifestyle is far more advanced than his "theology" on the matter at any rate.

I know when I became a christian, the church I went to put a lot of doctrines in my head that, in time (as I studied these very issues for myself) I saw were not only contradictory, but wrong. But many people never challenge such teachings, because they don't personally affect them anyway.

One of my OBU profs was very encouraging with me regarding my calling. The prof I looked up to the most said, "I don't want to limit what or whom the Holy Spirit wants to work with, and in what way."

Jody Webster said...

Hey Nicole,

I'm sorry if my post offended you in any way. This is something I've been struggling with for several years, basically for the same reasons you have been. I've known many great women who have felt like they had been called to the ministry and at the same time, I have heard the official stance of the SBC. The two have never seemed to go together very well. I can honestly say that I have never, not even for a second, thought of women as somehow weaker or less qualified than men. (My wife's in vet school too, you know.) Heck, at my house, I'm the one who does the stereotypical "feminine" things like cooking and cleaning while my wife handles the more "masculine" jobs like handling the money. Undoubtably, she's going to end up being the breadwinner in our family because as a minister, I'm never going to be bringing home the big check. All this to say, I feel exactly the same way that you do about gender roles and crap like that.

Honestly, the more I look back at that post, I think it was driven more by outside forces than by any actual revelations from the Bible. Mainly, there is the ever-present push to conform to SBC standards since I am a minister in the SBC church. The pressure is real and I've seen ministers lose their jobs because they won't affirm the Baptist Faith and Message. Admittedly, that is not the situation I am currently in, but it is something I stay aware of. All it takes is one gossip in the church saying I'm teaching the kids wrong and suddenly I'm on the street. I'm sure your brother has to deal with the same struggle in his position.

I'm not saying that this justifies a false belief, and as I said in reply to your comment on my blog, I'm retracting the position that I stated. I do believe that men and women are equal. I also believe that the SBC's position in many cases is coming from the churches themselves, sometimes from sexism in a pastor (I know of one who used the Faith and Message to clear women out of every ministry position in the church) and often from a fear of change in the congregation. I hope that in time this position will change, but I think it will have to start at home with local congregations saying that the official view is not their view. I'm sorry for the hurt that the SBC has caused you (especially if the post I made added to that at all) and I pray that God will continue to use you in whatever way he wants, regardless of what others may say.

Small Glimpses said...

Hi Nicole...I too have struggled (sometime still do) with this issue. Several years back during an terribly difficult time (crisis of faith shall we say) with this issue I ran across a book called "10 Lies the Church Tells Women" by J. Lee Grady. It was very timely!! It made a lot of sense to me and includes a lot of scriptural backup for those passages that are often used in this dialog about women and men. Anyway, as I mentioned on Natalie's blog, my model is how Jesus related to women. He welcomed women into his midst, called them to follow him, touched them, conversed with them, healed them, ate with them, visited their homes, and received gifts from them. He also trusted a woman to be a reliable witness of his resurrection during a time when women were considered unreliable witnesses and easily deceived. This last example is my most cherished one.

SG

Nicole said...

Wow, I have some questions to answer.

Q—

Well, I guess I should out right state my prejudices at least for the sake of honesty. I do think that being a woman and engaging in homosexual behavior are in two different arenas. Let me explain a little more about that. I don’t interpret the scriptures to say that women can’t be ministers; I do interpret them to say that homosexual behavior is wrong (but no more wrong than every sin that I commit every day).

Let me say a bit more about my view on homosexuality. My view of sex, sexuality, the coming together of male and female, is that it is a reflection of the unity of God. That while being three, God is also one. Marriage is the closest earthly relationship symbolizing God’s communal nature. So, I am very protective of the institution of marriage within the Church. Civil matters are really separate from this, in my opinion. I can’t tell everyone to believe like me, but I do think that the church can say…This is our teaching. However, I’m not going to take a stance and say that churches that allow gay clergy are in no way the work of God. I feel like that the SBC is setting itself up to legislate a certain very constrained set of religious laws and is headed toward saying Christ/Christians MUST look this way. Pastors must look this way. Ministry must look this way. I don’t feel the need to do that. I feel like I can say, this is what I believe, and unless you’re questioning the Lordship of Christ, His Resurrection, the Trinity and other core beliefs, I can agree that we can disagree.

If someone who I was close enough to was both homosexual and feeling called to the ministry (and you better know them damn well if you’re going to comment on something like that in their life)… First, I’d celebrate his or her calling. Wow, God is working in your life. Can I pray with you about this? What’s helped you discern this calling? But I do think that there is a difference in experiencing same sex attraction and choosing to engage in and identify as homosexual. God calls humans to the ministry, and that means he calls sinners. So can you be homosexual and be a minister? Sure. Do I still think homosexuality is a sin? Sure. Am I going to be celebrating homosexuality as a type of diversity and a lifestyle to be accepted unquestioningly? No. But I don’t think that it’s any more a sin than the fact that I’m one narcissistic bitch at times. That some of my friends are alcoholics, some do drugs, some live with their boy/girlfriends, and that I had sex before I was married. And I would be a lot more likely to challenge them and say, “What’s God calling you to give up as a part of a call to ministry?”

Nicole said...

Nun and Jim,

Thanks for your words of support and for kinda just sitting with me like Job's friends did with him in silence for seven days. (Uh, you're like that part..not the part where they start talking and act like asses ;) ).

I think it does sting, and I am trying to just be gracious that my family is in a different place developmentally than I am in my faith. I think my brother will continue to grow, and that things will change. I was very sad to hear him say all of that though.

Jim, you are right on the contradiction to which I was referring. *sigh* But, I think that what is going on is that my brother doubted for so long that he wants something to cling to and doesn't quite trust himself or the Holy Spirit enough yet to say...you know, the SBC just might be wrong.

~Nicole

Nicole said...

Jody,

I was completely NOT offended by you blog or your post, or any responses to your post. I felt like you were searching and I appreciate that.

You've rarely offended me, and if you have I felt like you have handled it with Grace. I apologize for the fact that you have unjustifiably, but my own fault, been dragged into some recent dirty politics in the blogosphere. I apologize for all of that. I was wrong.

I so enjoy getting/hearing your thoughts. Please stick around and keep on thinking. I appreciate that in a minister. I honestly don't get how you can be your Calvinist bad self and be in the ministry at an SBC church. You perplex me...but I like you. I actually feel like I can let you know if you offend me, and I ask you'd to give me the same respect.

Nicole said...

SG--

Thanks for the words of support and what sounds like a great resource that I need to check out.

Surfed by your place. I like it! Yay for kitties. Yay for women in the ministry.

Nicole

stc said...

Nicole:

Thanks for the thoughtful and respectful reply. If I were gay, I probably wouldn't be satisfied with it. But you're responding compassionately, and that's the main thing. No one who lacks compassion is fit for pastoral ministry.

The connection I made between homosexuals and women may seem unreasonable. (And it was insensitive of me to raise it in the present context — glad you didn't take offence.) I certainly am not suggesting that it's a sin to be a woman!

But, in my view, the New Testament is unequivocal: in marriage and in ministry, a woman must be subordinate to male headship. The teaching offends me, but so does the New Testament teaching about homosexuality being a sin.

That's not why I'm now a liberal; but both issues troubled me a great deal during the fifteen years I was an evangelical.
Q

Bruce Prescott said...

Nicole,

It is men like your brother, who should know better, that drive me crazy on this issue.

Why can't they make the connection between their attitude toward women outside of church and their attitude toward them within it?

It makes me fear that whenever they do decide to be consistent, their attitude and relations with women outside the church will deteriorate to the level they accept within it.

Jody Webster said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Jody Webster said...

Thanks Nicole, I'm sure I could have handled our little situation better too. Sorry about that. Thankfully, that's all in the past now. Looking forward to hearing more from you.